Sunday, January 18, 2009
This is discussion at wikipedia about Jadoons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jadoon) and i want to share it with you just for knowldge and want to tell you a point that some pepoles thinking and jeloiusy with you JADOONS
In history section of wikipedia the author wrote
The Jadoons were freedom fighters and they showed bravery against their rivals
Now at disscussion our friend :):):) a Mughal women have objection on this sentence her name is Sughra Ahmad Mughal .she wrote
Jadoons/Gaduns are not brave people at all. They were the HAMSAYAS of stronger tribes like Usufzais etc. As Hamsays; they were only the tennants, peasants and menial service performers. Jadoons of Dhamtor ran away from the battlefield in 1848 when ABBOTT was fighting the Sikhs in Pakhli, Hazara. Generally, Jadoons are not very literate either: In Abbottabad, for example, they call themselves Pathans with pride which is a deragatory term indeed by Hindi corruption; meaning a 'thug'. No real Pakhtoons or Afghanis like to be called Pathan. They want to be called Afghani or Pakhtoon. Read a classic book The 'Pathans'by Sir Olaf Caroe and improve your knowledge of history. The British retained the word 'Pathan' from Hindoos only. Also, Jadoons got lands from their Lords/protectors in return for their services to their Lords; the stronger tribes. I have posted an article on web recently, on Pathans Genealogy, Blood-Feud and Hamsayas etc. That will help in detail.
The term Hamsaya as defined: weaker, poorer and dependent and that is what the Jadoons were.
The fact that you call them "Jaduns/Gaduns" proves that you don't know a thing about them. In fact it was 200 Peshawaris that ran from the Salhad Pass and deserted Abbott. IF YOU had read Major Abbott's diaries you would have found out that he does not mention Jadoons by name AT ALL. In fact in all of his dealings with the tribes of Hazara, he very rarely met Jadoons. Another important point is that the Jadoons were AGAINST the BRITISH at that time. They were on the side of Ahmed Shah Durrani who was against the Brtitish and he had a peace treaty with the Sikhs - another reason why the British disliked the Jadoons.
Try to be critical when you read books, and don't just rely on one book. Olaf Caroe writes highly of Pukhtoons who served the British -just like the Russians would write well of tribes who helped them against the Mujaheddin, but not of the Mujahideen who fought against them. Likewise with the Taleban - enough said.
If the Jadoons are what you say, they would not have conquered Hazara and taken all the best lands. I have many firends who are Jadoons from Hazara, and they are more Pukhtoon and follow Pukhtoonwali more rigidly than the Yousafzai and other tribes.
Infact Jadoon hospitality and bravery is proverbial. One saying goes, "If you want to show friendship/hospitality show it like a Jadoon, and if you want to show enmity/be an enemy, then show it like the Jadoons."
First of all let me assure you that I did not mean to offend any one. I have very respectable friends among pathans and I respect all my friends equally regardless of class and clan.
I had given references to the discussion on jaduns/gaduns. I believe that the points raised therein are known, at large, to the knowledgeable indeed. I also believe that without digging deep-down into the subject matter and coming to some inconvincing conclusions is an act of mere & sheer ignorance.
Note that I am not ‘rigid’. Infact I hate to be rigid. I am very dynamic and open to acceptance as I go by fashion. I would appreciate very much if you could support your statement “Jadoons conquered Hazara” by some authenticity e.g. references of books, journals written by people of knowledge.
Mind that I do not go by perceptions either. Here is another reference:
James W. Spain: The Pathan Borderland
“jaduns occupy areas around Haripur, Mansehra, and Abbottabad and had migrated from West of Indus to the present home in the seventeenth century.”
I find it very difficult to weigh a “migrant” and a "conqueror” on the same balance of a scale.
Where and what is then their real and I mean real real homeland? Obviously it is not Afghanistan.
Also, know that whoever came to power throughout the history was brave; Afghans, Mughals, Sikhs, Hindus and the British; the one subdued was the weaker of the time. Muslims, Infidels, and Idolators all had their rise and dowfall.
Thanks for your patient hearing/reading
Now here is reply to her from a jadoon name Adil Khan Jadoon
Adil Khan Jadoon Reply her
I think you must be Sughra Ahmad Mughal - since you mention that you have put up a website and refer to it.
I can give you the references that you need regarding the various Jadoon conquests but there are some things that you must understand.
Bravery or the lack of it is an heterogeneous attribute in every society, race and creed. Wikipedia is NOT an internet newsgroup or chat room - Avoid making derogatory comments about a tribe or group of people for publication on this respected online encyclopedia. It only emphasizes your own ignorance.
An educated, professional person can always express themselves in a way that does not denigrate another.
You will find when you read further below, that "Hamsaya" is a totally incorrect description of the Jadoons, ADDED by Olaf Caroe. The original documents (see below) don't use this term at all.
You also have blown out of proportion the Pathan/Pukhtoon nomenclature issue. To an Afridi, Jadoon, Wazir, Yousafzai, etc. when they speak in Pukhto, they always say Pukhtoon or Pashtoon - but in Urdu/Hindko/English - it's the habit to say "Pathan" - that is how it is at the "ground level" - understood by the ordinary folk. No big issue for the Pathans - only a big thing for the non-Pathans. Even the term "Afghani" nowadays means, Uzbek, Tajik, Turkomen, Hazara etc i.e. inhabitants of Afghanistan.
The two books you quoted have mistakes: James Spain's book has numerous mistakes on the other Pathan tribes as well (such as on the Mohmands for instance) - but that is expected - he is not an Anthropologist. If you really want to write about Pathans use references from established Anthropologists like Prof. Akbar S. Ahmed. Olaf Caroe's book also has mistakes - like the one regarding the Jadoons not helping Abbott, when in fact it was 200 Peshawaries (mentioned in his personal diaries held at the British India Office Library in London) - also if you look on his map of Pathan tribe locations, he includes the Mishwanis - who actually acknowledge they are non-Pathans - in fact the Mishwanis of Hazara say they are Syeds - and in Afghanistan, they are recognized as "Arabs". Another is his conclusions that the Jadoon's were Hamsayas - if you look at the original papers that mention these (SEE BELOW) NO WHERE is this mentioned. It is a TOTALLY INCORRECT ASSUMPTION made by Olaf Caroe.
Here are references to the Jadoon's character, and the fact they conquered those parts of Hazara where they now reside as opposed to "passive migration" (written by non-Jadoons):
Reference: Notes on Afghanistan and part of Baluchistan: geographical, ethnographical, and historical. Extracted from the writings of Afghán and Tajzík historians, geographers, and genealogists; the histories of the Ghúris, the Turk sovereigns of the Dilhí Kingdom, the mughal sovereigns of the house of Tímúr, and other Muhammadan chronicles; and from personal observations.
By Major H.G.Raverty , Bombay Native Infantry (retired). Published London, 1880.
Author of a "Grammer" and "Dictionary" of the Pus'hto or Afghan Language; "The Gulshan I-Roh, or Selections, Prose, and Poetical, in the Afghan Language;" "The Poetry of the Afghans, from the Sixteenth Century to the Nineteenth Century;" "The Fables of Aesop Al-Hakim in the Afghan Language;" "Translation of the Tabakát-i-Násirí, from the Persian of Minhá-i-Saráj;" "The Pus'hto Manual," etc etc.
"The descent of the Jzadún Afghans, called Gadúns by the tribes about Peshawar, who change the original letter "Jz" into "g", is well known to those acquainted with the genealogy of the Pus'htánah or Afghán nation. "They are descended from Jzadún, son of Parnaey , and brother of Kakar, the two latter being sons of Dánaey, son of Ghurghusht, son of Kais-i-'Abd-ur-Rashíd, entitled "the Patan." As has already been stated (at page 9) the descendants of Parnaey who were very numerous, are said to have been ousted from their lands in Sánga'h Mandáhí, in Síwístan, became dispersed, and moved northwards at a comparatively early date. It is also clear that they became greatly scattered, and that but few continued to dwell in their early seats, a vast number having migrated into India, where many are still to be found, in the southern part of the peninsula. But we need not go quite so far south to find a number of them. Besides the Jzadún Parnís on the west bank of the Indus, there are no less than six or seven thousand Parní families at this present time still located in what we call the "Hazárah District," peopling some eighteen or twenty villages. Their chief town was Najíb-ullah Garh, but great changes have taken place in these parts, now included in the Hazárah District, since the annexation of the Panj-áb, in 1849. The Safi Afghans are descended from another of Parnaey's sons, who bore the former name, and Sáfaey was therefore a brother of the progenitors of the Jzadúns.
"The Jzadúns appear to have been located near the southern slopes of the Spín Ghar range, west of Irí-ab, about the time the Khas'hís, (MY NOTE: these give rise to Khas'hís Khel or Khakhay Khel as it is written in some accounts because the Pakhto "Kheen" is the Pashto "Sheen" and is the clan from which the Yusafzai descend from), having been obliged to vacate their old seats through the hostility of the Ghwarís, (MY NOTE: written in other accounts as Ghwariah Khel, and is the clan from which the Khalils, Mohmands, Daudzais and Chamkannis descend from. Both Khas'hís and Ghwarís were brothers), moved northwards towards Kábul; and, while the Khas'hís were dwelling within the limits of the Kábul province, on the northern side of the range of Spín Ghar, the Muhammadzís joined the Yúsufzí and Mandar tribes of that sept, and together with the Jzadúns continued with them as an associated and allied tribe during their subsequent vicissitudes.
"When these tribes made a distribution of the conquered territories after the defeat of the Dilazaks near Katlang (see page 224), and they had been driven out of the Sama'h, as will be presently mentioned, the Jzadúns took the lands in the eastern part of the Sama'h, near the Abáe-Sín, and there they still dwell. During the course of some four centuries, since the period in question, considerable changes have taken place in these parts, but not so many as might have been expected with reference to the Afghan tribes of this locality, but the Jzadúns have, since that period, pushed across the Abáe-Sín, and hold lands on the east, in Kohistán of Dharam-taur, and are said to number near upon ten thousand families. They will be subsequently referred to in the account of that district or territory
"The Jzadúns are divided into three sub-tribes, which again contain minor sections which need not be enumerated here."
(MY NOTE:The name "Parnaey" is also written in some accounts as "Panris" or "Pannis").
Here is another reference from: The People of India: A series of photographic illustrations of the Races and Tribes of Hindustan. Edited by J.Forbes and Sir John William Kaye, vol. 5, London, Indian Museum 1872.
"The Jadoons are not British subjects, though they inhabit a portion of the district called Hazara. They inhabit a portion of the frontier below, that is south of the Hussanzye tribe, lying on the right bank of the Indus, and opposite to the British town of Torbeyla. Westward their territory extends till it meets the higher ranges of the Hindoo Koosh. The Mahabun mountain, with its dense forest, lies within their boundary, and the whole tract is wild and rugged in an almost inconceivable degree. Though the Jadoons accompanied the Yoosufzyes when they descended from Kabool in the fifteenth century, and conquered and occupied the valley of Peshawaur, they claim to have an independent origin, and are separate from the Yoosufzyes. The Jadoons have spread into the neighbouring district of Hazara, and now form one of the strongest tribes of that province, occupying the central portion; their villages lying from 1,500 to 6,000 feet above the plains of the Indus. The Jadoons are a fair complexioned tribe, many of them having brown hair and beards, and ruddy colour, with grey or hazel eyes, and they are, for the most part, fair, with strong, athletic forms, extremely active, and capable of enduring great exertion and fatigue."
Another reference from:
Notes on the Eusofzye tribes of Afghanistan By The Late Capt. Edward Connolly (published after his death in the First Afghan War, in the Asiatic Journal and Monthly Register for the British and Foreign India, China, and Australasia. Vol.XXXV-New Series, May-August, 1841.):
"The Judoons are related to the Kaukar Affghan tribe (i.e. come from Parni, brother of Kakar - MY NOTE) and migrated to these parts, perhaps two or three centuries ago (time of writing: approx. 1838) and are divided into two great branches, Salar and Munsoor of whom the first are settled to the east of Punjtar, and the rest in Drumtour. The Salars are said to have 64 villages, and to muster 6000 matchlocks; their government is a democracy, more rigid than that even of the Euosafzyes. I was nearly causing a quarrel at Grenduf, their chief town, by inadvertently asking who was their head Mullick. We were much struck by the appearance of wealth and comfort in their villages, which are large and populous and the Hindoos seemed to be more numerous and thriving amongst them, than in any other part of the country we visited."
....and another reference: Hillary Rose in "A glossary of the tribes and castes of the north west frontier provinces and the protected territories of the north west frontier provinces, Vol. II (A to K)published 1919, Lawrence Rd, Delhi, writes:
"The Jaduns occupy all of the southeastern portion of the territory between the Peshawar and Hazara borders, and southern slopes of Mahaban, having taken their present lands in the eastern Sama after the Jaduns and various Kashi chiefs of the Afghans had defeated the Dilazaks, and when Jahangir finally crushed the Dilazaks, they spread up the Dor valley as high as Abbottabad. Early in the 18th Century, on the expulsion of the Karlugh Turks by Saiyed Jalal Baba they appropriated the country about Dhamtaur; and about hundred years later they took the Bagra tract from the remaining few Dilazaks who held it, while shortly before the Sikhs took the country their Hassanzai clan deprived the Karral of a portion of the Nilan valley".
I could go on giving you references all night, but I think my point has been made.
So again if you look at the literature it's OLAF CAROE who calls them Hamsayas - the original documents mentioning them don't SPECIFICALLY call them Hamsayas - but ALLIES. Big difference!
In fact, by going to Hazara, which is largely a non-Pakhto speaking area, the Jadoons further preserved their "Pashto pronounced" name. The first letter of "Jadoon" is spelt with a unique Pashto letter which is like the arabic "rey" but has a dot above and a dot below. In Southern (Qandahar/Helmand) Pashto this letter is pronounced as "J" and in Northern (Kabul/Peshawar) Pakhto it is pronounced as "G". Hence "Jadoon" in Pashto and "Gadoon" in Pakhto. This further supports the account that Jadoons migrated from southern Afghanistan. Write "Jadoon" with this unique Pashto letter in the beginning instead of "Jeem" or "Gaaf" and show it to any Pashtoon from Qandahar and he will pronounce it as "Jadoon"!
No Jadoon calls himself Gadoon.
Let me give you another analogy: Consider the "Bangash Pakhtoon Clan." When you write "Bangash" you use the unique Pakhto "Kheen" which in Pashto is pronounced "Sheen" (It's like the Arabic "seen" but has a dot above and below). So if I speak Pakhto I will say "Bangakh" and if I tell an Englishmen that my Pakhtoon Clan is "Bangakh" he will always call me "Bangakh" because he does not know Pashto and so is unaware of the word changes in the language.
I hope this information helps.
But Sughara bahan got angry and replied to adil khan jadoon as
Judged on the first couple of paragraphs that I have read in your REPLY, I came to the conclusion that it is not my worthwhile to go through the rest of your pages which I believe bear no credibility. Some of the reasons apply;
1) Repudiating the praise worthy research work of an exemplary historians like Olaf Caroe and a great living anthropologist like Dr. hab is a clear evidence of ‘YOU’ being misled by the rigidity of the primitive and antique un-enlightened minds.2) You have no idea of the criterion of the word “nationality”. Factually almost 45% of Afghan population is Pakhtuns in Afghanistan. Segmenting the entire population of a Sovereign State into groups and labeling only the minorities as ‘Afghan’ leaves no doubt about your poor knowledge, mind set and low literacy level which is so incompatible to the present modern world. 3) If you do not have the guts to take the critique then do not be open to discussion. All enlightened and educated know very well how and where to express their views.
On the above grounds it leaves no room for the enlightened to carry on any further discussion especially with you. I only respect people of knowledge, who are rational, enlightened and exhibit the protocol of communication. Unfortunately you have proven your ignorance repeatedly and beyond doubt and therefore you deserve no credibility from now on. 22.214.171.124 23:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Now Adil khan jadoon reply
The saying, “Some minds are like concrete, all mixed up and permanently set!” holds true for your way of thinking, as does the Pashto proverb, "Putting books on a donkey doesn't make it intelligent."
You asked for references and I gave them to you. If you don’t read them, it explains to everyone why you made ignorant comments in the first place. That’s your own undoing.
In fact I went to the original documents – like a serious researcher - unlike yourself whose basing your views on secondary and tertiary information that gets interpreted differently each time.
No-one can help someone who continues to disagree with the primary source, yet agrees with the secondary and tertiary sources. Speaks poorly of your research method. You obviously have your own agenda.
Serious researchers do what I do – amateurs do what you do. You’re not as “flexible in your views” as you say you are and are the one who can’t take the critique as is proven in your response.
The good thing is as a result of your inquiry, the INACCURACIES of Olaf Caroes’ book regarding the Jadoons are there for everyone to see – and the ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS correcting his assumptions are there for everyone to read!
Tahir khan jadoon reply to Sughara madam
Dear Sughra Mughal:
I have read your original comments on the Jadoon tribe and then the comments made by Adil Khan. It is clear that he has taken information from several respectable sources and he has taken the time to fully quote these in his response to you. However your response to him was very unreasonable and rude. You say in your reply to Adil Khan:
“On the above grounds it leaves no room for the enlightened to carry on any further discussion especially with you. I only respect people of knowledge, who are rational, enlightened and exhibit the protocol of communication”.
If Adil Khan is not knowledgeable, I certainly donot feel that you have the knowledge to be commenting in an authoritative way on the Jadoon tribe. It is clear for our readers to see who is more knowledgeable and correct on this subject.
A Europian Historian Joseph Conor England replied to Sughara jee
The Prosecutor whoever you are! I would like to draw attention of the readers to two main flaws in your case, not scholarly but ethical. You Criticised Jadoons, ok, Mr Adnan Khan Jadoon being a jadoon directly shot didnt mind at all but cleared your mind according to your wishes mentioned above that u like good critique. Then why did you mind and offend him being not directly targeted, its not understading inspite he gave references i also read which are true. Second if he proved your references wrong and partly, then u may explain them again wholy or may provide more references in prosecution but you didnt at all desspite being rude and offending. I am an Historian, a europian and doing my Postdoc research about Afghan Origins now in islamabad, and according to all my 10 years study and knowledge you are wrong/poor in your prosecution, your clearance and your ethics as well. You have no right to criticise or to provide false material on any clain, tribe or origin.
Another jadoon sohail khan jadoon add comments
mr sughra who ever u are you don't know whenever you going to say something about critical matters like Tribes,clan so think about it hundard times before say something and approach with the right material my brother Adil Khan Jadoon explined it very well with the solid proof of diffrent historions refrences i would like to say that you don't have small right to destroy and presents the wrong history of 'THE GREAT JADOON TRIBE' mind it